Most Brazilians aren't white, but mixed, black, & Amerin

Blacks, Whites, Indians, All

Most Brazilians aren't white, but mixed, black, & Amerin

Postby saotome198 » Thu Oct 09, 2003 2:16 pm

Much of what you write Bruno about race is not correct.

The research which was carried out by Sergio Pena and his associates showed that white Brazilians had on average 33% Amerindian and 28% Black African maternal genes.

On the paternal side, white Brazilians had about 2.5% African and 0% Amerindian genes.

So, using basic math, we can say that an average "white" Brazilian had about (33+28+2.5+0)/2 = 31.75% non-European genes and hence 68.75% European genes.

So, as for your aryan (i.e. European) racial purity, an average Brazilian who calls himself/herself white is actually only 68.25% pure European.

I do not understand, how you can say that North-Eastern whites are 70% white, which is not correct. Pena's research disproves that.

Northern self-described whites have on average more Amerinidian than Black heritage from their mother's side. North-Eastern self-described whites have on average more Black than Amerinidian heritage from their mother's side. Southern self-described whites have on average equal amounts of Amerinidian and Black heritage from their mother's side.

As for people, who call themselves Black, an average Brazilian black person is about 52% black and the rest some other race, lets say at least 5% Amerindian. So, an average Black Brazilian is about 43% European and 57% Black and Amerindian.

Likewise, an average intermediate (mixed racial) person in Brazil is about 45% African and the rest non-African, lats say about 5% Amerindian and the rest white. So, an average mixed racial Brazilian is about 50% European and about 50% Black and Amerindian.

Now, according to census 2000, 39.1 % of Brazil's population called themselves mulatto and/or mestizo (that is mixed-racial).

About 6.2% called themselves black.

About 0.4% said they were Native / Amerindian and 0.5% said they were Asian (mostly of Japanese and Chinese heritage).

So that leaves about 53.8% of Brazil's population who called themselves white and we know, according to Sergio Pena's research that they are on average only 68.75% white.

Now, the racial admixture of white brazilians varied from region to region: in the North (where Amerindian contribution was stronger than the African contribution to maternal DNA), North-east (where African contribution was stronger than the Amerindian contribution to mtDNA), and South-East (where both equal amounts of genetic contribution to the maternal DNA were made by both Africans and Amerindians). Paternal Y-chromosome in all areas was overwhelmingly white, except for about on average 2.5% African and 0% Amerindian contribution.

In the South, european contribution did indeed predominate, as European immigration was greatest there from 1808 to 1972.

However, as a whole, even a self-desrcibed white Brazilian is only 68.75% pure white, and even then white brazilians are more Amerindian in the north, and more african in the north-east, and both amerindian and african in the south-east (i.e. around Rio, etc).

In North of Brazil about 68.3% of population was pardo (i.e. mestizo and mulatto and other racial combinations), 0.2 % oriental, 2.3% black, and 1.2% Amerindian. The rest 28% was white, but these whites were about 31.75% non-white really, and more Amerindian on their mother's side than African (data - 1999 census).

In North-East of Brazil about 64.5% of population was pardo (i.e. mestizo and mulatto and other racial combinations), 0.1 % oriental, 5.6% black, and 0.1% Amerindian. The rest 29.7% was white, but these whites were about 31.75% non-white really, and more African on their mother's side than Amerindian (data - 1999 census).

In Center-West of Brazil about 49.4% of population was pardo (i.e. mestizo and mulatto and other racial combinations), 0.4 % oriental, 3.5% black, and 0.5% Amerindian. The rest 46.2% was white, but these whites were about 31.75% non-white really, and equally Amerindian and African on their mother's side(data - 1999 census).

In South-East of Brazil about 28.4% of population was pardo (i.e. mestizo and mulatto and other racial combinations), 0.2 % oriental, 6.7% black, and 0.1% Amerindian. The rest 64% was white, but these whites were about 31.75% non-white really, and equally Amerindian and African on their mother's side(data - 1999 census).

Only in the south, do Bruno white dominate, with 83.6 % of the population being white and the rest being native and black. But only 24.5 million people live in the South, compared to the large 47 million in the North-East, 70 million in the South-East, 12 million in the North, amd 11.7 million in the Center-West.

So, white may dominate the south, but even these whites have some indian and black admixture and they only represent 24.5 million of Brazil's 175 million people.

So, Brazil is overwhelminngly mixed than white.

May be where you come from, from the deep south, with its heavily German population, do lily white people like you dominate.

Oh, white people are not superior to other people. Civilizations like China and India have over 5,000 years of civilization, and had invented most products of civilization far before Europeans.

Europeans only came to dominate the world in the last 511 years, but so did China and India, the world's technology, arts, and civilization for 5,000 years prior to that.

European dominance is but a blimp of when compared to the greatness of Chinese and Indian civilizations.

As for your Native American peoples, or Amerindians:

The Ancient Mexicans had invented the wheel and they did so hundreds of years, before your ancestors learnt to cook. The ancient Mexican Native peoples used the wheels in toys.

Please learn your A,B,C's first before you write something.

But is not all.

Occupying a total area of 16,300,000 square miles, all of North America (which also includes Greenland, Mexico, Central America, and the Carribean islands) and South America represents about 31% of the entire planet earth's land surface area.

At least 20,000 years ago, the ancestors of Native peoples moved from what is now Northern Asia and Siberia across the Bering land bridge.

By about 12,000 years ago, these people had reached the southernmost tip of Argentina in Tierra Del Fuego.

For at least 20,000 years, the Native American peoples of North and South America had lived in harmony with mother earth. During all of that time period, life in the Americas was truly one of paradise and happiness.

It was a time, when man/women lived in harmony with mother earth. Every living creature, whether plant, animal, or fish was respected.

The ecosystems of North and South America were all sustainably used.

Even, though resources were not wasted and were always regenerated, Native Americans also had some of the world's greatest civilizations of all time.

The Native American peoples of North and South America are some of the most innovative and greatest of all peoples that ever existed on mother earth.

The Native American peoples of North and South America were the first people, who taught the world the knowledge of growing food crops, fruits, and vegetables like corn, tomato, potato, sweet potatoe, all colors of peppers, chilli peppers, peanuts, squash, pumpkins, all beans except the soyabean, avocado, cocoa (for chocolate), rubber, tobacco, sunflower, manioc, cassava, papayas, bottle gourd, wild rice, maple syrup, pineapples, guavas, and many other food crops.

This great knowledge of the natural world, appeared, because Native people loved the mother earth and learnt to marvel in their greatness.

Chicle, the essential ingredient of the chewing gum, we first discovered by the Native Americans.

Chocolates, which people love, where first created by the Native Americans.

The Native Americans also domesticated animals such as the turkey, guinea pig, llama, alpaca, muskovy duck, rhea, stingless bee, the dog, and the dove.

These food crops and animals later revolutionized the agriculture and the economy of the world, increasing population every where.

Native American pharmacological knowledge also helped to greatly prolong people's lives.

The Pre-Columbian Amerindians had the most highly developed pharmacological and medicinal knowledge of any peoples on earth. As they had lived for thousands of years in their distinct ecosystems, over time, they discovered the unique life saving and helpful properties of countless plants, trees, and flowers.

Vast numbers of their medicinal plants now form the basis of much of modern medicine. The aspirin tablet, quinine, even the component of the world's most widely used painkillers, cathartics, and medicines used for rheumatism, arthritis, tuberculosis, etc.

Many other life saving medicine, like the oral contraceptive, quinine for treating malaria, astringents, painkillers, antidote for snake bites, and others, were first developed by the Native American peoples.

Where would the world's tire and rubber industry be without the Amazonian Indians, who were the first to extract it from Amazon rainforest tree.

In addition to contributing two-thirds of the food, vegetables, and fruits that modern people eat and a large part of the world's medicine used today, the Native Americans also had some the world's greatest civilizations.

The Mayans for example discovered the concept of zero and positional notation.

They could predict solar and lunar eclipses, had the best calendar ever in existence, Venus and Mars rotations, and built large observatories in cities like Chichen Itza.

The Mayans, Aztecs, Zapotecs, Mixtecs, Totonacs, Huastecs, Olmecs, Toltecs, Tarascans in MesoAmerica and the Nazcas, Incas, Moches, Huaris, Paracas, Moche, Chimu, Tihuanaco, Huari, and the Incas in the Andes all developed distinct and great civilizations independent of any old world influence.

These great Native American civilizations, excelled in all great art forms including in wood, stone, feather, bead, mosaic, metals, paintings, books, murals, jewellary, pottery, basketry, and many other art mediums and forms.

Cities like Tikal, Copan, Palenque, Chichen Itza, Tenochtitlan, Teotihuacan, Chan Chan, Machu Pichu, Cahokia, Quito, Cuzco, Chavin de Huantar, Cahokia, San Lorenzo, Monte Alban, El Mirador, are just a few of the hundreds of large and sophisticated cities, where Native peoples thrived and lived. This does not include the thousands of other towns and smaller villages which dotted the great Andean and MesoAmerican civilizations.

Cahokia, was the largest city in what is now North America (north of Mexico) until 1800 AD.

North of Mexico, great civilizations like the Anasazi, Mogollan, and Hohokam built great desert cities and apartment complexes, developed beautiful jewellary, pottery, painting, and other art forms.

They were also great engineers, likes the ancient Andean Amerindians, building damns, canals, dykes, reservoirs, roads, causeways, and bridges.

The Mississipians, Hopewell, and Adena cultures also built great cities, engineering projects, cities, and mounds.

The American constitution, was also inspired by the highly sophisticated form of representative government, that the Iroquias confederacy followed for hundreds of years.

The Andean civilization was over 4,000 years old in 1531 AD (2,500 BC to 1531 AD) and the MesoAmerican civilization was over 3,000 years old in 1519 AD (1500 BC to 1519 AD).

Great cities, roads, bridges, temples, palaces, causeways, warehouses, pyramids, administrative complexes, floating gardens (called 'chinampas'), zoological gardens, aviaries, and market places dotted ancient Mexico, Guatemala, Belize, Peru, Ecudor, and Bolivia.

One such market in Tenochtitlan saw 60,000 people buy and sell countless goods and products everyday.

The Andean Native peoples, thrived in metallurgy and learnt to smelt and use gold, silver, copper, lead, and bronze.

The Incan society of the 1400s and the 1500s was the real precursor to the modern "socialist" society, with cradle-to-grave social services for people, as exists today in many modern day European countries.

There was even a Native American 'Bronze Age' going on at the time of Pizarro's arrival in Peru around the 1530s.

Despite this greatness in civilization, the Native Americans still lived in harmony with mother earth and respected every plant, animal, and creature, and did not destroy the many ecosystems that dotted the Americas.

Compared to the greatness of Native Americans, who are the real pioneers of the Americas, white Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian explorers came to the scene far later and did not "discover" the Americas.

Also Spain, Portugal, and Italy were mere pathetic backwaters and poor when compared to the great Chinese, Indian, Andean, and MesoAmerican civilizations.

Only through violence, diseases (against which Amerindians had no immunity), cheating, and military technology (which were all Chinese inventions, not European, but which the European copied from Ancient China) did the Europeans manage to conquer the Americas.

There is no greatness, when you use other's inventions (in this case Chinese) to conquer peoples (Amerindian peoples and civilizations) through cheat and deceit and using the lack of immunity of Native peoples against European diseases due to their 12,000 year isolation as a weapon to conquer good, honest, and honorable peoples of North, Central, and South America. :D :)
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Postby SPINAROONI » Thu Oct 09, 2003 2:37 pm

HEY SAOTOME IT DOESENT MATTER HOW MUCH AFRICAN OR INDIAN BLOOD A WHITE BRAZILIAN HAS IF HE'S WHITE IN APPEARENCE THATS ALL THAT MATTERS.SAOTOME DO YOU BASE RACE MORE ON APPEARENCE OR MORE ON ANCESTRY.I BASE MY ON APPEARENCE.APPEARENCE IS WHAT COUNTS ANYWAYS AND APPEARENCE IS WHAT MAKES A FIRT IMPRESSION IN MY OPINION.
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Postby *Shahid* » Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:25 pm

Good post, I'll come back and read it lator coz its too long.
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Postby Marina » Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:28 pm

SPINAROONI wrote:HEY SAOTOME IT DOESENT MATTER HOW MUCH AFRICAN OR INDIAN BLOOD A WHITE BRAZILIAN HAS IF HE'S WHITE IN APPEARENCE THATS ALL THAT MATTERS.SAOTOME DO YOU BASE RACE MORE ON APPEARENCE OR MORE ON ANCESTRY.I BASE MY ON APPEARENCE.APPEARENCE IS WHAT COUNTS ANYWAYS AND APPEARENCE IS WHAT MAKES A FIRT IMPRESSION IN MY OPINION.


Appearance is what counts for you, Spin. BTW, how do you classify Vanessa Williams? She's whiter than me.
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Postby *Shahid* » Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:56 pm

marina, i thought you're white
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Postby Marina » Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:58 pm

*Shahid* wrote:marina, i thought you're white


my Brazilian parents' background is French, Portuguese and Siberian. So I'm not a sistah but I'm Asian too, so there.
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Postby SPINAROONI » Thu Oct 09, 2003 5:03 pm

HEY MARINA WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING ON THERE'S NO WAY YOUR DARKER THEN VANESSA WILLIAMS.I SEE YOUR PIC AND YOU LOOK PRETTY PALE.VANESSA IS LIGHT BROWN.YOUR NOT LIGHT BROWN.DONT MAKE ME LAUGH MARINA.
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Postby SPINAROONI » Thu Oct 09, 2003 5:05 pm

VANESSA WILLIAMS WOULD BE SITTING IN THE BACK OF THE BUS DURING JIM CROW YOUR WHITEASS WOULDNT MARINA.VANESSA WILLIAMS IS A MULATA YOUR NOT A MULATA MARINA YOUR WHITE.DO YOU NEED GLASSES.
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Postby Marina » Thu Oct 09, 2003 5:38 pm

SPINAROONI wrote:HEY MARINA WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING ON THERE'S NO WAY YOUR DARKER THEN VANESSA WILLIAMS.I SEE YOUR PIC AND YOU LOOK PRETTY PALE.VANESSA IS LIGHT BROWN.YOUR NOT LIGHT BROWN.DONT MAKE ME LAUGH MARINA.


I've met her, she's lighter than me. She also has lighter hair and blue/gray eyes, mine are black and brown plus my skin looks tanned. Have you met either one of us? NO. Then how can you say I'm paler? Hmm, someone missed the bus when the Wizard of Oz was passing out the goods, I see!
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Postby SPINAROONI » Thu Oct 09, 2003 5:45 pm

I HAVE SEEN YOUR AVATAR PIC AND THERE IS NO COLORING IN YOUR SKIN.VANESSA HAS SOME MELANIN IN HER SKIN PLUS IF YOUR DARKER THEN VANESSA WHICH YOUR NOT THEN HOW COME PEOPLE NEVER CONFUSE YOU FOR BEING BLACK HUH MARINA.
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Postby SPINAROONI » Thu Oct 09, 2003 5:50 pm

JUST FACE IT MARINA YOUR A WHITE GIRL WHY DO YOU DENY YOUR WHITENESS.IF YOU WENT TO THE PROJECTS YOU WOULD STICK OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB I WILL GUARANTEE YOU THAT.YOU LOOK LIKE A f****n SPANIARD FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.
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Postby Marina » Thu Oct 09, 2003 5:56 pm

SPINAROONI wrote:JUST FACE IT MARINA YOUR A WHITE GIRL WHY DO YOU DENY YOUR WHITENESS.IF YOU WENT TO THE PROJECTS YOU WOULD STICK OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB I WILL GUARANTEE YOU THAT.YOU LOOK LIKE A f****n SPANIARD FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.


I never denied that I was white, nor did I say that people think i'm Black. But you don't know what my skin color is based on that foto. I could have foundation on, the lighting might make me darker or lighter... Like I said, I met Vanessa in person and she's darker than on TV or Films.
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Postby *Shahid* » Thu Oct 09, 2003 6:04 pm

marina is that really you on the avator pic? Are you American or Brazillian? just wondering.
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Postby Marina » Thu Oct 09, 2003 6:08 pm

*Shahid* wrote:marina is that really you on the avator pic? Are you American or Brazillian? just wondering.


I'm Brazilian living in California. I guess your lazy ass hasn't checked out my other posts ...
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Re: Most Brazilians aren't white, but mixed, black, & Am

Postby Young Buck » Thu Oct 09, 2003 6:12 pm

saotome198 wrote:Much of what you write Bruno about race is not correct.

The research which was carried out by Sergio Pena and his associates showed that white Brazilians had on average 33% Amerindian and 28% Black African maternal genes.

On the paternal side, white Brazilians had about 2.5% African and 0% Amerindian genes.

So, using basic math, we can say that an average "white" Brazilian had about (33+28+2.5+0)/2 = 31.75% non-European genes and hence 68.75% European genes.

So, as for your aryan (i.e. European) racial purity, an average Brazilian who calls himself/herself white is actually only 68.25% pure European.

I do not understand, how you can say that North-Eastern whites are 70% white, which is not correct. Pena's research disproves that.

Northern self-described whites have on average more Amerinidian than Black heritage from their mother's side. North-Eastern self-described whites have on average more Black than Amerinidian heritage from their mother's side. Southern self-described whites have on average equal amounts of Amerinidian and Black heritage from their mother's side.

As for people, who call themselves Black, an average Brazilian black person is about 52% black and the rest some other race, lets say at least 5% Amerindian. So, an average Black Brazilian is about 43% European and 57% Black and Amerindian.

Likewise, an average intermediate (mixed racial) person in Brazil is about 45% African and the rest non-African, lats say about 5% Amerindian and the rest white. So, an average mixed racial Brazilian is about 50% European and about 50% Black and Amerindian.

Now, according to census 2000, 39.1 % of Brazil's population called themselves mulatto and/or mestizo (that is mixed-racial).

About 6.2% called themselves black.

About 0.4% said they were Native / Amerindian and 0.5% said they were Asian (mostly of Japanese and Chinese heritage).

So that leaves about 53.8% of Brazil's population who called themselves white and we know, according to Sergio Pena's research that they are on average only 68.75% white.

Now, the racial admixture of white brazilians varied from region to region: in the North (where Amerindian contribution was stronger than the African contribution to maternal DNA), North-east (where African contribution was stronger than the Amerindian contribution to mtDNA), and South-East (where both equal amounts of genetic contribution to the maternal DNA were made by both Africans and Amerindians). Paternal Y-chromosome in all areas was overwhelmingly white, except for about on average 2.5% African and 0% Amerindian contribution.

In the South, european contribution did indeed predominate, as European immigration was greatest there from 1808 to 1972.

However, as a whole, even a self-desrcibed white Brazilian is only 68.75% pure white, and even then white brazilians are more Amerindian in the north, and more african in the north-east, and both amerindian and african in the south-east (i.e. around Rio, etc).

In North of Brazil about 68.3% of population was pardo (i.e. mestizo and mulatto and other racial combinations), 0.2 % oriental, 2.3% black, and 1.2% Amerindian. The rest 28% was white, but these whites were about 31.75% non-white really, and more Amerindian on their mother's side than African (data - 1999 census).

In North-East of Brazil about 64.5% of population was pardo (i.e. mestizo and mulatto and other racial combinations), 0.1 % oriental, 5.6% black, and 0.1% Amerindian. The rest 29.7% was white, but these whites were about 31.75% non-white really, and more African on their mother's side than Amerindian (data - 1999 census).

In Center-West of Brazil about 49.4% of population was pardo (i.e. mestizo and mulatto and other racial combinations), 0.4 % oriental, 3.5% black, and 0.5% Amerindian. The rest 46.2% was white, but these whites were about 31.75% non-white really, and equally Amerindian and African on their mother's side(data - 1999 census).

In South-East of Brazil about 28.4% of population was pardo (i.e. mestizo and mulatto and other racial combinations), 0.2 % oriental, 6.7% black, and 0.1% Amerindian. The rest 64% was white, but these whites were about 31.75% non-white really, and equally Amerindian and African on their mother's side(data - 1999 census).

Only in the south, do Bruno white dominate, with 83.6 % of the population being white and the rest being native and black. But only 24.5 million people live in the South, compared to the large 47 million in the North-East, 70 million in the South-East, 12 million in the North, amd 11.7 million in the Center-West.

So, white may dominate the south, but even these whites have some indian and black admixture and they only represent 24.5 million of Brazil's 175 million people.

So, Brazil is overwhelminngly mixed than white.

May be where you come from, from the deep south, with its heavily German population, do lily white people like you dominate.

Oh, white people are not superior to other people. Civilizations like China and India have over 5,000 years of civilization, and had invented most products of civilization far before Europeans.

Europeans only came to dominate the world in the last 511 years, but so did China and India, the world's technology, arts, and civilization for 5,000 years prior to that.

European dominance is but a blimp of when compared to the greatness of Chinese and Indian civilizations.

As for your Native American peoples, or Amerindians:

The Ancient Mexicans had invented the wheel and they did so hundreds of years, before your ancestors learnt to cook. The ancient Mexican Native peoples used the wheels in toys.

Please learn your A,B,C's first before you write something.

But is not all.

Occupying a total area of 16,300,000 square miles, all of North America (which also includes Greenland, Mexico, Central America, and the Carribean islands) and South America represents about 31% of the entire planet earth's land surface area.

At least 20,000 years ago, the ancestors of Native peoples moved from what is now Northern Asia and Siberia across the Bering land bridge.

By about 12,000 years ago, these people had reached the southernmost tip of Argentina in Tierra Del Fuego.

For at least 20,000 years, the Native American peoples of North and South America had lived in harmony with mother earth. During all of that time period, life in the Americas was truly one of paradise and happiness.

It was a time, when man/women lived in harmony with mother earth. Every living creature, whether plant, animal, or fish was respected.

The ecosystems of North and South America were all sustainably used.

Even, though resources were not wasted and were always regenerated, Native Americans also had some of the world's greatest civilizations of all time.

The Native American peoples of North and South America are some of the most innovative and greatest of all peoples that ever existed on mother earth.

The Native American peoples of North and South America were the first people, who taught the world the knowledge of growing food crops, fruits, and vegetables like corn, tomato, potato, sweet potatoe, all colors of peppers, chilli peppers, peanuts, squash, pumpkins, all beans except the soyabean, avocado, cocoa (for chocolate), rubber, tobacco, sunflower, manioc, cassava, papayas, bottle gourd, wild rice, maple syrup, pineapples, guavas, and many other food crops.

This great knowledge of the natural world, appeared, because Native people loved the mother earth and learnt to marvel in their greatness.

Chicle, the essential ingredient of the chewing gum, we first discovered by the Native Americans.

Chocolates, which people love, where first created by the Native Americans.

The Native Americans also domesticated animals such as the turkey, guinea pig, llama, alpaca, muskovy duck, rhea, stingless bee, the dog, and the dove.

These food crops and animals later revolutionized the agriculture and the economy of the world, increasing population every where.

Native American pharmacological knowledge also helped to greatly prolong people's lives.

The Pre-Columbian Amerindians had the most highly developed pharmacological and medicinal knowledge of any peoples on earth. As they had lived for thousands of years in their distinct ecosystems, over time, they discovered the unique life saving and helpful properties of countless plants, trees, and flowers.

Vast numbers of their medicinal plants now form the basis of much of modern medicine. The aspirin tablet, quinine, even the component of the world's most widely used painkillers, cathartics, and medicines used for rheumatism, arthritis, tuberculosis, etc.

Many other life saving medicine, like the oral contraceptive, quinine for treating malaria, astringents, painkillers, antidote for snake bites, and others, were first developed by the Native American peoples.

Where would the world's tire and rubber industry be without the Amazonian Indians, who were the first to extract it from Amazon rainforest tree.

In addition to contributing two-thirds of the food, vegetables, and fruits that modern people eat and a large part of the world's medicine used today, the Native Americans also had some the world's greatest civilizations.

The Mayans for example discovered the concept of zero and positional notation.

They could predict solar and lunar eclipses, had the best calendar ever in existence, Venus and Mars rotations, and built large observatories in cities like Chichen Itza.

The Mayans, Aztecs, Zapotecs, Mixtecs, Totonacs, Huastecs, Olmecs, Toltecs, Tarascans in MesoAmerica and the Nazcas, Incas, Moches, Huaris, Paracas, Moche, Chimu, Tihuanaco, Huari, and the Incas in the Andes all developed distinct and great civilizations independent of any old world influence.

These great Native American civilizations, excelled in all great art forms including in wood, stone, feather, bead, mosaic, metals, paintings, books, murals, jewellary, pottery, basketry, and many other art mediums and forms.

Cities like Tikal, Copan, Palenque, Chichen Itza, Tenochtitlan, Teotihuacan, Chan Chan, Machu Pichu, Cahokia, Quito, Cuzco, Chavin de Huantar, Cahokia, San Lorenzo, Monte Alban, El Mirador, are just a few of the hundreds of large and sophisticated cities, where Native peoples thrived and lived. This does not include the thousands of other towns and smaller villages which dotted the great Andean and MesoAmerican civilizations.

Cahokia, was the largest city in what is now North America (north of Mexico) until 1800 AD.

North of Mexico, great civilizations like the Anasazi, Mogollan, and Hohokam built great desert cities and apartment complexes, developed beautiful jewellary, pottery, painting, and other art forms.

They were also great engineers, likes the ancient Andean Amerindians, building damns, canals, dykes, reservoirs, roads, causeways, and bridges.

The Mississipians, Hopewell, and Adena cultures also built great cities, engineering projects, cities, and mounds.

The American constitution, was also inspired by the highly sophisticated form of representative government, that the Iroquias confederacy followed for hundreds of years.

The Andean civilization was over 4,000 years old in 1531 AD (2,500 BC to 1531 AD) and the MesoAmerican civilization was over 3,000 years old in 1519 AD (1500 BC to 1519 AD).

Great cities, roads, bridges, temples, palaces, causeways, warehouses, pyramids, administrative complexes, floating gardens (called 'chinampas'), zoological gardens, aviaries, and market places dotted ancient Mexico, Guatemala, Belize, Peru, Ecudor, and Bolivia.

One such market in Tenochtitlan saw 60,000 people buy and sell countless goods and products everyday.

The Andean Native peoples, thrived in metallurgy and learnt to smelt and use gold, silver, copper, lead, and bronze.

The Incan society of the 1400s and the 1500s was the real precursor to the modern "socialist" society, with cradle-to-grave social services for people, as exists today in many modern day European countries.

There was even a Native American 'Bronze Age' going on at the time of Pizarro's arrival in Peru around the 1530s.

Despite this greatness in civilization, the Native Americans still lived in harmony with mother earth and respected every plant, animal, and creature, and did not destroy the many ecosystems that dotted the Americas.

Compared to the greatness of Native Americans, who are the real pioneers of the Americas, white Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian explorers came to the scene far later and did not "discover" the Americas.

Also Spain, Portugal, and Italy were mere pathetic backwaters and poor when compared to the great Chinese, Indian, Andean, and MesoAmerican civilizations.

Only through violence, diseases (against which Amerindians had no immunity), cheating, and military technology (which were all Chinese inventions, not European, but which the European copied from Ancient China) did the Europeans manage to conquer the Americas.

There is no greatness, when you use other's inventions (in this case Chinese) to conquer peoples (Amerindian peoples and civilizations) through cheat and deceit and using the lack of immunity of Native peoples against European diseases due to their 12,000 year isolation as a weapon to conquer good, honest, and honorable peoples of North, Central, and South America. :D :)

to marina-its the features...negroes have certian features as do white people. Skin color is just a part of it. Vanessa Williams is pale but she still has black features...but its all in how you look at...most people look at mullatos as black people with white features not white people with black features. There really is not a right or wrong to this in my opinion. I will say in America..a mulatto is treated like a black person..i know from experience..so thats why traditionally mulatto people considered themselves black..that is changing though. Infact, if extreme racist find out you have black in you, they will discriminate.
To sao-I personally think, If a person has majority caucasian ancestry and just a tiny bit of black in them..its thier choice whether they wanna consider themselves white or not...There is no law to what classifies race...thats the mystery of it. If ya wanna get that technical, than u should Italians and Spanish arent white cause they have moorish ancestry....but im sorry...i still call people from spain and italy white..even though thier ancestry may have some african in there.
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Re: Most Brazilians aren't white, but mixed, black, & Am

Postby Marina » Thu Oct 09, 2003 6:21 pm

HugoThePunk wrote: to marina-its the features...negroes have certian features as do white people. Skin color is just a part of it. Vanessa Williams is pale but she still has black features...but its all in how you look at...most people look at mullatos as black people with white features not white people with black features. There really is not a right or wrong to this in my opinion. I will say in America..a mulatto is treated like a black person..i know from experience..so thats why traditionally mulatto people considered themselves black..that is changing though. Infact, if extreme racist find out you have black in you, they will discriminate.
To sao-I personally think, If a person has majority caucasian ancestry and just a tiny bit of black in them..its thier choice whether they wanna consider themselves white or not...There is no law to what classifies race...thats the mystery of it. If ya wanna get that technical, than u should Italians and Spanish arent white cause they have moorish ancestry....but im sorry...i still call people from spain and italy white..even though thier ancestry may have some african in there.


look, I don't care whether or not Vanessa is Black or White, I'm just asking Spinny because he says goes by appearances. And there are lots of people that are identified as 'Black' who may not be in other countries (Brazil, for ex)- Vanessa, Alicia Keys....

The Moors aren't Black, it's a myth that Africa just turns Negroid once you cross the Mediterranean. The Moors are of the same ethnic stock as as Mediterraneans so it's not like the Portuguese,Spaniards and Sicilians were invaded by Wesley Snipes-colored people.
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Postby Young Buck » Thu Oct 09, 2003 6:27 pm

im aware of that marina...i know moors are arabs.. ive met morrocans, tunisians and egypt..i know north africa isnt negro...and i never used the word negro when mentioning italy and spain
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Postby SPINAROONI » Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:51 pm

HEY HUGO ARE YOU MORE INTO DARKSKIN SISTAS OR LIGHTSKIN SISTAS.
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well

Postby Young Buck » Thu Oct 09, 2003 9:31 pm

skin tone doesnt really matter to me. Fine women come in all colors. I know what I love in a woman, it has nothing to do with her race or her shade of color. I know what I do like though appearance wise. keyword is tone, a woman who works out is a plus. a woman who takes good care of her body is a plus. Curves are a plus. u can be thick(like some athletes) or thin(like some models) and have a good body. The thing that really gets me is how a woman presents herself. i quote many on this "wow, she's beautiful and she's friendly..." Let it be known...i like the female gender..unfortunately, in many settings women do not aproach men,...therefore, aproachability is important...my friend once said "I'm coming to your wedding cause It'll be interesting to see who you marry." Its halirious though, growing up and to this day..the first thing black girls ask me when they meet is "Do you like black girls or white girls?" I dont understand why I'm ask that by them. I dont know why they assume i can only like one. I like both. I really like mullattas(that may come to mind naturally), but I also like negras, I also like white chicks, I also like asians and the list goes on. The classic thing in America is if I was dating a white girl, what evil looks i'de get from black girls..I always found that funny. I hated how they assumed just cause I was dated a white girl at the moment I wouldnt date them. So, it sorta shocked them when i broke up with the white girl, iw as interested in some of them. What i said is "why wouldnt I be?" I told them to stop labeling me.
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saotome198

Postby Bruno » Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:19 pm

Saotome198, what I have written ISN´T wrong. Pena´s researches are very nice, but you need to remember two little things...

1- ) He tested white brazilians from mixed race places, specially. To represent southeastern brazilians, he choosed Minas Gerais state, instead São Paulo state ( São Paulo has 40 million people. Minas has 15 million. So, why MG ??? ). If Pena had studied a little about Brazilian´s demography, he would see that more than 50% of Brazilian white population lives in São Paulo and southern states. With this information, Caucasoid DNAmt would grown from 39% to more than 50%.

2- ) Finns have about 60% of Mongolic Y chromossomes. But it doesn´t mean that they´re mixed-race types. Y chromossomes or DNAmt are just TWO lineages and can´t represent the whole genome, saotome198. If we see the whole genoma, Krieger tests would be more interesting than Pena´s test. Krieger showed that white northeastern brazilians are, in fact, 70% white. Pena found about 1/3 of non-Caucasian DNAmt between white southern brazilians. But if we look to theWHOLE genome, Lisker found about 92% of European descent in the same people. The avarege white brazilian European heritage should be 80%. So, looking to the genome as a whole, white brazilians have about 20% of admixture. This number is very close to lots of European countries:

I. Mongoloid and Negroid Ancestry
Asian lineages were much more prevalent than sub-Saharan lineages, detected even in the Southern and Western groups, mainly because Mongoloids entered Europe as migrants long ago, while Negroids came only recently as slaves and thus in smaller numbers with less access to natives for intermarriage. Northeastern Europe was by far most affected by the Asian ancestry, which is correlated with Finno-Ugrian migrations from the Arctic and Siberia occurring c. 4000 years ago, and possibly also with later invasions. Indeed, it comprises a principal component of genetic variation in Europe.

NATIONALITY ADMIXTURE
Lapps 47.4%
Finns 30.0%
Lithuanians* 23.5%
Estonians 22.7%
Latvians* 16.0%
Russians 13.2%
Turks 5.9%
Ukrainians* 5.5%
Swedes 5.5%
Bulgarians 4.9%
Portuguese 4.6%
Norwegians 3.5%
Czechs* 3.0%
Danes 2.9%
Frenchmen 2.9%
Poles* 2.5%
Italians 2.1%
Spaniards 2.1%
Slovakians* 2.0%
Greeks 2.0%
Armenians* 1.5%
Germans 1.3%
Belarusians* 1.0%
Yugoslavians* 1.0%
Icelanders .6%
Britons .4%
Scots .3%
Irishmen

* D.N.A. mt

So brazilian white people are more "pure" than some european types like Lapps, Fynns, Lithuanians and Estonians... Interesting, isn´t it?

Oh, saotome198, you talked about black brazilian´s genetic composition... Remember that Pena tested black people just from a small town in Minas Gerais called " Queixadinha ". This village can´t represent blacks from Salvador, for example. Blacks from Ribeirão Preto have about 82% of African DNA mt and 96% of African Y chromossomes, acording Hortolini... Unfortunally, Pena won a lot of atention from non-scientific magazines. According Mark D. Shriver, the Penn State geneticist who is a leading expert on
racial admixture in the U.S., Pena had such an obvious political agenda that it was hard to take seriously. It appeard to be very clear when he sayd at PNAS magazine:

" You see leaders today, all over the world, doing it again!
Black, white, yellow, brown, people of every color
slaughtering people of every color! Because Satan is
always the same. "

Should such a sentimental statement be published in a respected scientific magazine ?? What do you think, saotome198 ??

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